精彩提要：

1、截至2018年，蓋茨夫婦累計(jì)捐贈達(dá)到360億美元，相當(dāng)于目前近一個(gè)百度的市值。

2、富裕國家的兒童死亡率不到1%，但在極端貧困的國家，很多地區(qū)的兒童死亡率超過15%，這在我們看來是最大的不平等之一。

3、我不需要這么多錢。我很早之前就實(shí)現(xiàn)了個(gè)人對消費(fèi)的全部需求，可以用這些多余的財(cái)富產(chǎn)生一些影響。我并沒有犧牲什么，不會因此吃不上飯，這些錢對我來說都是多余的?？傆幸惶煳視阉械腻X捐出去。

4、在很多國家內(nèi)部，不平等狀況有所上升。這是一個(gè)政策問題，一個(gè)國家是否有累進(jìn)稅收制度，向富人多征稅，用來構(gòu)建更強(qiáng)大的保障系統(tǒng)，幫助貧困人群。

《影響力》 李兆元

“生活是不公平的，要去適應(yīng)它。” 比爾·蓋茨這句話被無數(shù)人奉為真理。但身為世界首富，他卻用行動(dòng)為這句話又做了一個(gè)注腳：若有余力，還可以改變世界。

說起比爾·蓋茨，有很多理由讓人羨慕。1975年創(chuàng)辦微軟;自1995年登頂福布斯富豪榜以來，12年穩(wěn)坐世界首富寶座;人類歷史上首位個(gè)人資產(chǎn)超過1000億美元，卻是唯一將360億美元全部捐出的人。

福布斯富豪榜最新數(shù)據(jù)顯示，截至2019年9月18日，比爾·蓋茨財(cái)富凈值達(dá)到1056億美元，排名世界第二，僅次于亞馬遜CEO杰夫·貝索斯。截至2018年，蓋茨夫婦實(shí)際捐贈達(dá)到360億美元。

在公眾眼中，他是財(cái)富的代名詞，身上永遠(yuǎn)籠罩著“微軟創(chuàng)始人”的光環(huán)。但他從微軟退休后已經(jīng)遠(yuǎn)離商界多年，潛心致力于慈善事業(yè)。他賺到了世界，又將所得財(cái)富用自己的方式歸還給這個(gè)世界。

“富裕國家的兒童死亡率不到1%，但極端貧困的國家很多地區(qū)的兒童死亡率超過15%。芬蘭的兒童死亡率是最低的，不到貧窮的尼日利亞的1/50。”在蓋茨看來，這是世界上最大的不平等。

從世界首富轉(zhuǎn)變?yōu)槭澜缡咨?，蓋茨卻對金錢處之淡然。他笑稱，“我不需要這么多錢，這些錢對我來說都是多余的?？傆幸惶煳視阉械腻X捐出去。”

“從首富到首善”

坐落在美國西海岸的西雅圖，是一座祥和靜謐的城市，沒有紐約曼哈頓的喧囂與繁華。這里誕生了世界上第一杯星巴克，誕生了改變?nèi)祟悮v史的波音和微軟，市值近萬億美元的亞馬遜。這里是比爾·蓋茨的故鄉(xiāng)。

在西雅圖，大家對比爾·蓋茨的印象是親切溫和，并沒有世界首富的光環(huán)，你可能會看到他和平常人一樣排隊(duì)買漢堡。他如同一個(gè)坐標(biāo)，融入這座城市的血脈之中。

訪談當(dāng)天，他穿著一件淺藍(lán)色的羊毛衫，獨(dú)自安靜地走進(jìn)訪談間，謙遜溫和，彬彬有禮，沒有前呼后擁的喧鬧。

如今，蓋茨雖然依然與微軟同在一座城市，但其在微軟的身影早已淡出。當(dāng)互聯(lián)網(wǎng)在世界范圍內(nèi)風(fēng)起云涌之時(shí)，他卻轉(zhuǎn)身退出江湖。

2000年1月，蓋茨宣布卸任微軟首席執(zhí)行官，并與妻子梅琳達(dá)·蓋茨成立了比爾及梅琳達(dá)·蓋茨基金會(下稱“蓋茨基金會”)，并由此開啟了自己人生的第二份事業(yè)。這是世界上資產(chǎn)規(guī)模最大的私人慈善基金會。截至2018年，蓋茨基金會累計(jì)捐贈額達(dá)到501億美元，相當(dāng)于1.33個(gè)百度，1.08個(gè)京東。

目前，蓋茨基金會已經(jīng)在全球超過100個(gè)國家開展慈善工作，重點(diǎn)關(guān)注全球健康、全球發(fā)展、教育等領(lǐng)域，尤其對解決非洲等發(fā)展中國家的健康與不平等問題格外重視。

消除瘧疾是蓋茨基金會的重點(diǎn)工作目標(biāo)之一。全球每年約有2億人感染瘧疾，有近60萬人因此喪命，其中90%的死亡來自非洲。迄今為止，蓋茨基金會共投入近30億美元贈款用于消除瘧疾。

“我們正在和中國開展瘧疾藥物和(藥浸)蚊帳方面的合作。中國政府正在加強(qiáng)與非洲國家的合作，共同努力消除瘧疾。希望能在未來的20年至25年之內(nèi)徹底消除瘧疾。”

對于從世界首富到世界首善的轉(zhuǎn)變，蓋茨表現(xiàn)得十分淡然。“我很早之前就實(shí)現(xiàn)了個(gè)人對消費(fèi)的全部需求，那么可以用這些多余的財(cái)富產(chǎn)生一些影響。我并沒有犧牲什么，不會因此吃不上飯，這些錢對我來說都是多余的。”他對《影響力》談到。

“乍得兒童死亡率是芬蘭的55倍 這是最大的不平等”

9月17日，蓋茨基金會發(fā)布了第三份《目標(biāo)守衛(wèi)者報(bào)告》(下稱《報(bào)告》)。報(bào)告的最新數(shù)據(jù)表明，雖然全球在健康和發(fā)展方面持續(xù)取得進(jìn)展，但全球不平等問題依然是實(shí)現(xiàn)聯(lián)合國可持續(xù)發(fā)展目標(biāo)的主要障礙。

理工科出身的蓋茨，習(xí)慣基于數(shù)據(jù)和邏輯思考問題。他強(qiáng)調(diào)，世界在改善全球健康和不平等方面已經(jīng)取得了很大成就。“2000年基金會剛成立時(shí)，全球每年有1000萬兒童死亡，現(xiàn)在這一數(shù)字已經(jīng)減半，每年有500萬兒童死亡，可以說是非常不錯(cuò)的進(jìn)展。到2030年我們應(yīng)該能夠?qū)?shù)字再次減半，也就是降低到250萬。”他提到。

《報(bào)告》數(shù)據(jù)顯示，即使在全球最貧困的地區(qū)，也有99%以上的社區(qū)在兒童死亡率和教育方面得到了改善。但即便如此，全球仍有近5億人無法獲得基本的健康和教育服務(wù)。如非洲乍得每天死亡的兒童數(shù)量比芬蘭一年還多，一個(gè)乍得兒童的死亡機(jī)率幾乎是芬蘭兒童的55倍，差距懸殊到令人無法理解。

“富裕國家的兒童死亡率不到1%，但極端貧困的國家很多地區(qū)的兒童死亡率超過15%。芬蘭的兒童死亡率是最低的，不到貧窮的尼日利亞的1/50。”在蓋茨看來，這是全世界最大的不平等。

此外，國家內(nèi)部區(qū)縣之間也存在著巨大的不平等?！秷?bào)告》指出，以印度為例，在喀拉拉邦的奎隆縣，兒童死亡率為1%，人均受教育年限為14年，幾乎與全球最發(fā)達(dá)國家相當(dāng)。相比之下，北方邦的布道恩縣的兒童死亡率則超過8%，人均受教育年限也只有6年。

除全球健康之外，教育也是蓋茨基金會重點(diǎn)考察關(guān)注的議題。蓋茨認(rèn)為，人力資本是一個(gè)國家釋放生產(chǎn)力和實(shí)現(xiàn)繁榮的最佳途徑。如果缺乏人力資本，對于那些健康狀況欠佳和沒有接受過教育的人而言，擺脫貧困幾乎是天方夜譚。

“健康和教育水平的提高對個(gè)人和國家都是非常有利的，是很重要的資產(chǎn)。未來即便有大量機(jī)器人和軟件應(yīng)用，人力資本仍然十分重要。”蓋茨對《影響力》表示。

做慈善的困惑與挑戰(zhàn)

從2017年起的每年秋天，全球政商和文化界的數(shù)百位知名人士會在蓋茨夫婦的邀請下齊聚紐約。他們并非聚集在一起討論政商話題，而是去參與一場以致力于實(shí)現(xiàn)聯(lián)合國可持續(xù)發(fā)展目標(biāo)的論壇——“目標(biāo)守衛(wèi)者”大會。

放眼全球，沒有任何一場會議能夠像這場大會一樣，聚集數(shù)百位政要、商人、明星、歌手、平民身份的跨界人士。蓋茨夫婦此舉，或許反映他們在慈善道路上的焦慮與困境。僅憑個(gè)人力量有限，他們希望號召更多領(lǐng)域的人投身其中。

做慈善很容易，要將每一分錢用在刀刃上卻很難。商人出身的蓋茨，并不把慈善一事當(dāng)作是“樂善好施”，而是將商業(yè)思維運(yùn)用到慈善事業(yè)中，衡量所投入資金的“投資回報(bào)率”。

蓋茨表示，在挽救兒童生命的過程中，投資回報(bào)率最高的是疫苗。他在2017年的年信中寫道，“自1990年至今，我們已經(jīng)挽救了1.22億兒童的生命。”

對身處美國精英階層的蓋茨來說，要幫助世界上最貧困地區(qū)的非洲人群，如何穿越重重政治文化、社會結(jié)構(gòu)和教育體系的阻礙?對此他舉例稱，如果疫苗對一類人群有效，那么對另一群人也應(yīng)該有效。“通過研發(fā)麻疹或艾滋病疫苗，就算我們不了解當(dāng)?shù)匚幕?xí)俗，仍然能夠幫助這些人。”

世界雖然在一天天變好，但很多觸目驚心的數(shù)字依然存在。每一分為改變世界不平等所作出的努力，都值得世人尊重和敬仰。即使困難重重，即使遭遇挫折，蓋茨對慈善事業(yè)的前景依然樂觀。

“我們應(yīng)該珍視所有的生命，我非常幸運(yùn)能夠擁有一份如此有意義的第二職業(yè)。一旦你親自去過某些地方并且了解了當(dāng)?shù)氐臓顩r，相信你也會認(rèn)為這是一生當(dāng)中最值得從事的事業(yè)。”

附專訪實(shí)錄

Q: You used to be the richest people in the world. Now you’re the second?

Q：過去您曾經(jīng)是世界首富，現(xiàn)在您應(yīng)該是世界第二吧?

A: That’s right. Well as I give money away, I’d be the fourth and the fifth, in someday I’ll give it all away.

A：我一直在把自己的錢捐出去，估計(jì)以后會變成第四或者第五，總有一天我會把所有的錢全捐出去。

Q: We want to know, you were once the richest people in the world, now you’re the biggest donor. Why you make this huge shift?

Q：過去您曾經(jīng)是世界首富，現(xiàn)在您是世界首善，是什么讓您發(fā)生了這種轉(zhuǎn)變?

A: When I was working at Microsoft, the goal was to make great software. And the fact that created the value of Microsoft ownership, there is a huge amount of wealth. I didn’t expect that you know. I didn’t need that. That doesn't change how many hamburgers I eat or how many sweaters I wear, so I reached the limit sort of personal consumption a long time ago. So, that extra wealth is available to have an impact. And so, that’s why I studied why children died and thought,” Hey, is this being taken care of?” And in that case, I found that almost no money was going to malaria research. And so I found my cause to turn to my second career, which involves giving this money back in partnership with my wife and Warren Buffet. And so, it’s very fun work. It’s working with scientists, and it’s travelling the world; it’s partnering with a government like China saying “You’re the expert, what are they thinking, what can we do together for seeds and vaccines”. Anyway, it’s very enjoyable, so I’m not making any sacrifice, and I’m not giving up my lunch to do this work, it’s all excess money.

A：我在微軟工作時(shí)，目標(biāo)是開發(fā)出全世界最棒的軟件，也因此創(chuàng)造出了巨大的財(cái)富，這是我并沒有預(yù)料到的。但其實(shí)我不需要這么多錢，我一頓飯不會因此多吃幾個(gè)漢堡，也不會多穿幾件衣服。我很早之前就實(shí)現(xiàn)了個(gè)人對消費(fèi)的全部需求，那么可以用這些多余的財(cái)富產(chǎn)生一些影響。我開始研究兒童死亡的原因，思考這些問題是否正在得到解決。那時(shí)我發(fā)現(xiàn)，瘧疾研究幾乎得不到任何資金支持。我因此發(fā)現(xiàn)了人生第二份事業(yè)，與我的夫人和沃倫·巴菲特先生共同投身慈善。這份工作很有趣，可以和很多科學(xué)家合作，到世界各地考察，還有機(jī)會與政府合作，包括中國。我會咨詢各個(gè)領(lǐng)域?qū)＜覀兊囊庖?，探討如何合作研發(fā)出更好的種子和疫苗。總之，我非常享受這份工作，我并沒有犧牲什么，不會因此吃不上飯，這些錢對我來說都是多余的。

Q: In this year your report, Goalkeepers, you said you’ll keep focusing on inequality. So in your mind, what is the inequality most around the world? Women, education, disease control, or income poverty?

Q：今年的《目標(biāo)守衛(wèi)者》報(bào)告重點(diǎn)關(guān)注不平等問題。在您看來，當(dāng)今世界上最嚴(yán)重的不平等體現(xiàn)在哪方面?性別、教育、疾病，還是收入?

A: Well, often we talk about income, and that’s pretty important. You know, people living in extreme poverty who don’t have enough resources to buy food always worried about their survival. We really want to get rid of that extreme poverty. But another measure that the foundation has focused a lot on is health. You know, we look at how many children are dying and how we can reduce that number. When we first got started, it was 10 million were dying every year back in the year 2000. And now that’s been cut in half. So it’s about 5 million now. So, that’s really good progress. If you take rich countries, it’s well under 1%, but if you take the poorest countries, there are still places where it’s over 15%. A child in Finland, which is the lowest, had 50 times lower chance of dying than the child in Nigeria, which is a quite poor African country. So that range. You know, our view is that it is one of the greatest injustices, and the world has enough knowledge and resources. We should be able to reduce that dramatically.

A：我們經(jīng)常討論收入不平等的問題，這十分重要，世界上還有很多生活在極端貧困中的人口，他們沒有足夠的錢買食物，生存可能都成問題。我們非常希望能夠消除極端貧困。但是另外一個(gè)非常重要的指標(biāo)，也是蓋茨基金會的工作重點(diǎn)，就是健康。我們關(guān)注全球每年的兒童死亡數(shù)量，并盡最大努力降低這一數(shù)字。2000年蓋茨基金會剛成立時(shí)，全球每年有1000萬兒童死亡，現(xiàn)在這一數(shù)字已經(jīng)減半，每年有500萬兒童死亡，可以說是非常不錯(cuò)的進(jìn)展。富裕國家的兒童死亡率不到1%，但在極端貧困的國家，很多地區(qū)的兒童死亡率超過15%。芬蘭的兒童死亡率是最低的，那里兒童死亡的概率不到貧窮的尼日利亞的1/50。這在我們看來是最大的不平等之一。全球現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)擁有足夠豐富的知識和資源，我們應(yīng)該完全有能力大幅度降低兒童死亡數(shù)量。

Q: Every year in the Goalkeepers, on the first page, we saw the 17 goals as topics from the global goals. Which one do you think is easy to achieve, and which one do you think is hard to realise and why?

Q：每年報(bào)告的第一頁都列上17個(gè)全球目標(biāo)。您認(rèn)為這些目標(biāo)中哪個(gè)最容易實(shí)現(xiàn)?哪個(gè)最難實(shí)現(xiàn)?原因是什么?

A: Health is very central to all these goals, and that’s where the foundation has chosen to focus. And of course the science of how we make vaccines and how we understand how to stop malaria. Every year the world is getting smarter. So, I put that in a very primary position, because if you’re malnourished and not healthy, then everything else like education or being productive is very very difficult. And if we can really solve health and education, those are the two that to me are enabling. I don’t want to downplay – the environment is very important – all the different goals. But the countries that can take care of themselves are the ones that have really improved health and education. And China is a fantastic example. Starting in 1990, agricultural productivity, investment in education and health. It’s really phenomenal how those things enabled the incredible economic miracle.

A：健康是實(shí)現(xiàn)所有目標(biāo)的核心，基金會也因此把健康作為工作重點(diǎn)?，F(xiàn)在我們研發(fā)出了多種疫苗，掌握了治愈瘧疾的方法，每年都有更加先進(jìn)的技術(shù)產(chǎn)生，健康仍然是最重要的。如果一個(gè)人身體不好或者營養(yǎng)不良，接受教育和參加工作都無從談起。我認(rèn)為提升人們的教育和健康水平是最有價(jià)值的。我并非低估其他議題的重要性，比如環(huán)境也非常重要。但只有一個(gè)國家的教育和健康水平得到顯著提升后，才能自力更生。中國就是一個(gè)很好的例子。自從1990年開始，中國在農(nóng)業(yè)、教育和健康領(lǐng)域取得了了不起的進(jìn)展，這也是中國創(chuàng)造經(jīng)濟(jì)奇跡的基石。

Q: So, what's your expectation for the next step for the health, even though it's maybe the equality the most? What's the next step for the foundation you want to do?

Q：接下來您和基金金會在健康領(lǐng)域的工作重點(diǎn)有哪些?

A: Well, I’d highlight two things. First, we still have 5 million children dying every year now. In 2030 we should cut that in half again, get it down to below 2.5 million. And there are some diseases like Poliomyelitis that paralyses children and kill some. That one in the next 3-4 years should be able to be eradicated. Over a longer-term, you know probably in 20-25 years, we should be able to take malaria and eradicate that. That’s still killing, just malaria, over half a million children every year and hurting tens of millions. You know these very aggressive goals. We’re talking with people in China who make malaria drugs and bednets and the government is there strengthening their partnerships with Africa; how can we work together to eliminate malaria.

A：我想強(qiáng)調(diào)兩件事：首先，目前全球每年依然有500萬兒童死亡，到2030年我們應(yīng)該能夠?qū)?shù)字再次減半，也就是降低到250萬。目前全球仍有兒童因?yàn)榧顾杌屹|(zhì)炎導(dǎo)致癱瘓甚至死亡，我們希望未來三四年里能將它徹底根除。更長遠(yuǎn)來看，我們希望在未來20-25年徹底消除瘧疾。瘧疾每年能導(dǎo)致50萬兒童死亡，遭受這種疾病折磨的人口數(shù)量有幾千萬。這些都是非常遠(yuǎn)大的目標(biāo)。我們正在和中國開展瘧疾藥物和(藥浸)蚊帳方面的合作。中國政府正在加強(qiáng)與非洲國家的合作，共同努力消除瘧疾。

Q: How do you think China can make more contribution to that?

Q：您認(rèn)為中國在這過程當(dāng)中能夠作出哪些貢獻(xiàn)呢?

A: Absolutely, China’s economic growth has been good for the world. You know China has expertise in many many areas, but now it’s thinking OK and asking African countries what their priorities are. The kind of infrastructure China does is very important. Roads are key to economic growth. But these countries are saying “Hey please help us with malaria” Tanzania as an example where it’s three-ways partnerships now: the Gates Foundation, Tanzania, and China. We’re doing this pilot projects, and we’ve been having some good results. Yes, I think health will be an area that China can help the poor countries a lot.

A：這是毫無疑問的，中國的經(jīng)濟(jì)增長為世界做出了巨大的貢獻(xiàn)，而且中國在許多領(lǐng)域都有很強(qiáng)的專業(yè)能力。目前中國也在尋求幫助非洲國家解決最迫切的問題。中國在非洲建設(shè)公路等基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施十分重要，有助于當(dāng)?shù)氐慕?jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展。但同時(shí)非洲國家也希望中國能幫他們解決瘧疾問題。比如在坦桑尼亞，我們現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)形成了三方合作機(jī)制，包括蓋茨基金會、中國政府和坦桑尼亞政府共同開展的試點(diǎn)項(xiàng)目，目前已經(jīng)取得了不錯(cuò)的成果。我認(rèn)為中國能在健康領(lǐng)域?yàn)檫@些貧困國家提供許多幫助。

Q: Talking about China, we know that the economic growth is so fast in the past decades, and China depends on two factors: one is globalization, and another one is population bonus, but the situation now is complicated. So do you have any suggestion for China and the Chinese young people?

Q：過去幾十年中，中國經(jīng)濟(jì)的快速增長主要得益于兩項(xiàng)因素：一是全球化，二是人口紅利。但目前的情況正在變得更加復(fù)雜，能否給中國政府和中國年輕人一些建議?

A: Certainly, the quality of education. You know the universities are getting better and better, in some cases like Tsinghua being one of the best in the world, and the other ones are keeping improving. That trend towards the quality of education will allow China in areas with really high-paying jobs and innovative jobs to contribute to both their successes and the world by and large. The economic growth may not achieve the same percentages in the past, but as long as the job market is working well, and the anti-poverty programs are working well, China should be very proud of what it’s doing, even if the absolute economic growth isn’t going to maintain the really high level that you’ve had in the past.

A：教育質(zhì)量非常重要?，F(xiàn)在中國高校的教學(xué)水平越來越好，比如清華大學(xué)就是世界頂尖學(xué)府之一，很多大學(xué)的教學(xué)水平也在不斷提高。教學(xué)質(zhì)量的提升將會為中國創(chuàng)造許多高薪且具有創(chuàng)造性的工作崗位，對個(gè)人、中國和世界都有利。中國未來的經(jīng)濟(jì)增速可能不會一直保持過去的高速度，但只要?jiǎng)趧?dòng)力市場仍然健康，減貧計(jì)劃進(jìn)展順利，中國應(yīng)該為目前的進(jìn)展感到自豪。

Q: What’s your comment to the globalization? Maybe we can find some hinder on that?

Q：您對當(dāng)下的全球化局勢怎么看?是否遇到了一些阻礙?

A: I’m a huge believer in globalization, and the countries mutually benefit from that. Right now, we see some countries pulling back from that, even in some ways the USA is pulling back from that. I think it will be a strong political debate. I don’t think we’ll see a dramatic reversal, but we see there are some voices that speak out against that, and it would be a good, open discussion. The road for innovation, whether it’s health, climate change, or IT, the pace of innovation is going to stay very strong. And that creates huge job opportunities, including China, is doing great work in those areas.

A：我個(gè)人非常支持全球化，這對各國來說都是互惠互利的。現(xiàn)在我們也看到一些國家正在退出全球化，甚至美國在一些方面都是如此。這是一個(gè)復(fù)雜的政治問題。雖然短時(shí)間內(nèi)很難看到明顯的轉(zhuǎn)向，但也有很多反對這種做法的聲音，這將引發(fā)公開、有益的討論。至于創(chuàng)新，無論是在醫(yī)療健康、氣候變化或者信息科技領(lǐng)域，今后創(chuàng)新的步伐都會很快。這會帶來很多新的就業(yè)崗位，中國在這方面做得非常不錯(cuò)。

Q: That’s good news. In the last Goalkeepers Report, you kept the focus on investing in youth, especially in Africa, because it depends on traditional economics. The healthier you are, the better education for the youth, and you get a better return for that. But do you consider something is changing about the innovation of technology, which has the huge power to change the world? Do you still think the human capital theory is still there?

Q：在去年的《目標(biāo)守衛(wèi)者》報(bào)告中，您強(qiáng)調(diào)對年輕人投資的重要性，尤其是非洲國家，因?yàn)榉侵拗饕揽總鹘y(tǒng)經(jīng)濟(jì)產(chǎn)業(yè)。年輕人越健康、教育水平越高，對社會的回報(bào)就會越大。但您是否考慮過科技創(chuàng)新改變世界的潛力?這種情況下，人力資本理論依然有效嗎?

A: Absolutely.

A：這是毫無疑問的。

Q: Why?

Q：為什么呢?

A: Well, the job market is very strong, and the high salaries are there for well-educated people. If you look at the satisfaction and health of those people, it’s very good, so there is a lot of benefit in individual, and for a country, as it invests in health and education of the people. It’s the main asset. Even if we have lots of robots and software, human capital will be super important. Some of the things that require less education like just driving around, it could be substituted, but if anything, that just creates more value to make sure that those educational investments are well done.

A：因?yàn)榫蜆I(yè)市場仍然有著巨大的需求，教育程度高的人往往獲得高水平的薪資。他們的生活滿意度和健康水平都很高，這點(diǎn)很好，所以健康和教育水平的提高對個(gè)人和國家都是非常有利的，是很重要的資產(chǎn)。未來即便有大量機(jī)器人和軟件應(yīng)用，人力資本仍然十分重要?？赡軙幸恍┎恍枰敲锤呓逃降墓ぷ鲿蝗〈热缢緳C(jī)。但我們?nèi)匀恍枰度胱銐虻慕逃Y源，從而產(chǎn)生更多的價(jià)值。

Q: Do you think we can find more opportunities after the Luis Turning Point? Like China, we can still find more and more population bonus from that? Maybe we can use AI and robots. Do you think it's working?

Q：您認(rèn)為在路易斯拐點(diǎn)之后中國還會有更多的發(fā)展機(jī)會嗎?中國是否繼續(xù)獲得人口紅利?還是應(yīng)該轉(zhuǎn)向人工智能和機(jī)器人?

A: Well, I think economic growth can continue even when the workforce is not growing because the productivity of these tools will make the productivity per worker much higher. Even in a society like Japan that is aging, they’ll be able to increase their output which is a good thing, because you want to have those resources to take care of the older generation to help them be able to retire and have benefits. So yes, even as the size of the workforce goes down, the economic opportunities are still huge.

A：我認(rèn)為，即便中國的勞動(dòng)力規(guī)模不再增長，中國的經(jīng)濟(jì)仍然會繼續(xù)增長，因?yàn)檫@些新的科技工具能夠提高人均生產(chǎn)力。即便是日本這樣高度老齡化的社會仍然能夠通過新興科技提升人均產(chǎn)出，從而贍養(yǎng)退休的老一代。所以就算勞動(dòng)力總體規(guī)?？s小，中國仍將擁有巨大的經(jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展空間。

Q: That’s good. You must know this book.

Q：這本書您一定看過。

A: Yeah. Fantastic.

A：是的，非常精彩。

Q: Have you tried these certain questions?

Q：您做過這些題嗎?

A: Yes.

A：做過。

Q: What was the score?

Q：您的得分如何?

A: It's the field I work in. I think I got one wrong.

A：這恰好是我的工作領(lǐng)域。我好像有一道題做錯(cuò)了。

Q: Just one?

Q：只做錯(cuò)了一道題嗎?

A: You know, these questions are about my current full-time job. It’s like asking a cab driver about directions. And I was a friend of Hans. His very first speech at TED I was there. And I realized that he’s telling a story better than I’ve ever heard before, including the story of how you improve health, that actually the population goes down, which is very surprising to many people. And that whole way he presented data, my wife and I got to be very good friends with him. It’s a shame that he died.

A：因?yàn)檫@些問題都和我目前的工作有關(guān)，這就像問出租車司機(jī)路線一樣。而且我和漢斯(Hans Rosling)是好朋友，之前他在TED的演講我也參加了，那是我聽過的最精彩的演講之一。他提到在健康條件改善的情況下，人口數(shù)量反而會下降，這讓很多人感到驚訝。我和我的夫人都感到很幸運(yùn)能夠和他成為朋友，他的過世也讓我們很痛心。

Q: Yes. That’s so sad. But back to the book, the test. I mean, do you know the truth about his word? Before I came, I read this book; I don’t know the truth. I don’t know the data.

Q：的確非常令人遺憾。但回到這些答題上，之前您就知道他說的這些真相嗎?我來(西雅圖)之前讀了這本書，我并不知道他所說的這些真相和數(shù)據(jù)。

A: Most people, even educated people, get less than 50% right. University professors actually do worse than the average person. He is very articulate about this. When we read about disasters, and the news media does a better job of telling us the worst thing anywhere in the world we read about. When I was young, we didn’t know so much about earthquakes or in other countries. And because as human we like to solve problems, we are always looking at, oh, this is a potential problem. Things are going well like reducing childhood death or improving literacy; you don’t dwell on that, you mostly dwell on “Here is where we need to do more work”. So Hans is not saying things have improved so much that we should be lazy. It’s because people care and worry that vaccines have been invented and they are not getting out to more and more children. But to honestly assess, we have to know these numbers that the world has improved and that doing more types of innovation that’s gotten us progress, we should feel good about that.

A：很多受過高等教育的人也只能答對不到一半的問題。實(shí)際上，大學(xué)教授的正確率還不如普通人。漢斯對這些問題講的很明確?，F(xiàn)在媒體總是第一時(shí)間讓我們知道世界上哪里又發(fā)生了嚴(yán)重的災(zāi)難。我年輕的時(shí)候就不太會知道哪個(gè)國家有地震發(fā)生。人類總是喜歡解決問題，我們總是會關(guān)注那些潛在的問題，而不會去想那些已經(jīng)進(jìn)展不錯(cuò)的事情，比如降低兒童死亡率、消除文盲等，而是想哪些地方是我們需要額外努力的。漢斯的意思不是說，我們已經(jīng)取得這么多進(jìn)展，所以我們可以懈怠了。而現(xiàn)實(shí)是，大家更容易擔(dān)心雖然已經(jīng)有疫苗被研發(fā)出來了，但還是有很多孩子沒有辦法得到接種。但我們要(對世界)做出一個(gè)客觀的評估，我們必須看到數(shù)據(jù)，世界已經(jīng)取得不錯(cuò)的進(jìn)展，創(chuàng)新是背后的推動(dòng)力，我們應(yīng)該為此感到自豪。

Q: I think Hans has given us a relevant and useful method to divide the whole world in a different way, and this chart is very impressive. But my question is, you live on this side. This is your point.

Q：漢斯為我們提供了一個(gè)劃分世界的新穎又有用的方法，這張圖也很震撼。您應(yīng)該屬于這個(gè)地方?

A: Yeah, I’m individually even luckier.

A：是的，對我個(gè)人來說，我更幸運(yùn)。

Q: But not the foundation, and your full-time job is doing this?

Q：但基金會關(guān)注的是剩下的那些群體。這就是您全職在做的事情?

A: Absolutely.

A：沒錯(cuò)。

Q: How could you create such a huge space for this. It’s across civilization, religions, and different social system, and different education. How do you do that?

Q：這些群體的文化、信仰、社會結(jié)構(gòu)以及教育體系都完全不同。您是如何做到兼顧的?

A: The desire to have your children survive exists in every one of these countries. Mothers want their children to survive. And human biology about…, if the vaccine works in one group of humans, will it work in another group, is essentially the same. By creating a measles vaccine or an HIV vaccine, even though you don’t understand the culture and the practices of these people, you can benefit them. Things like roads and electricity and better seeds are helpful. You make a very good point that to actually deliver these products; you need to connect with the people who live in these communities, whether it’s the tribal leaders or religious leaders. For example, educating a mother that you should vaccine your child in these countries, I don’t know how to do that. But I can make money and make sure they’re creating women’s groups where women get together and talk to each other, and that’s a great form for women to explain to each other about vaccination. You’re right, it takes a lot of work, that how to reach all the children in the world who deserve to get these vaccines. You know, these places are very different, and the government in some places are even not existent.

A：哪個(gè)國家的人都希望兒童能生存下來，哪個(gè)母親都希望自己的孩子能健康成長。如果疫苗對一類人群有效，那么對另一群人也應(yīng)該有效，這些在本質(zhì)上是相同的。通過研發(fā)麻疹或艾滋病疫苗，就算我們不了解當(dāng)?shù)匚幕?xí)俗，仍然能夠幫助這些人。當(dāng)然，公路和電力設(shè)施的建設(shè)，以及培育更好的種子也是非常重要的。有一點(diǎn)你說的很對，想要把這些產(chǎn)品成功交付，需要和社區(qū)里的人建立聯(lián)結(jié)，例如通過部落首領(lǐng)或者宗教領(lǐng)袖。舉個(gè)例子，我不知道如何讓這些母親認(rèn)識到給孩子接種疫苗的重要性，但我可以投入資金，幫助建立一些婦女組織，這樣她們之間能夠互相溝通，最后都了解疫苗的作用。你說的沒錯(cuò)，這需要大量的工作，讓每個(gè)有需要的孩子都接種上疫苗。每個(gè)地區(qū)的情況都完全不同，有些地方甚至連政府都沒有。

Q: Do you have any pressure to do that?

Q：您從事這項(xiàng)事業(yè)感覺有壓力嗎?

A: It seems like a clear thing to value all these human lives. Once you visit those places, it’s very hard to ignore the problem. If you’ve never been there, you’re kind of like “Yeah I don’t know, is that really that bad? Is it hard to help?” But once you go there and meet those people, I think for the rest of your life you’ll wonder, isn’t that the most morally important that you can work on?

A：我們應(yīng)該珍視所有的生命。一旦你親自去了某些地方，就很難再忽視那里存在的問題。如果你從沒有去過，你可能會覺得“情況真的有那么糟糕嗎?提供幫助真的那么困難嗎?”一旦你去過并且了解了當(dāng)?shù)氐臓顩r，相信你也會認(rèn)為這是一生當(dāng)中最值得從事的事業(yè)。

Q: Now you’re doing your best and with all your effort to narrow the gap between rich and poor, but unfortunately maybe the statistics are showing the gap may be widened.

Q：現(xiàn)在您全身心投入到消除貧富差距當(dāng)中，但遺憾的是，按照數(shù)據(jù)來看，貧富差距似乎擴(kuò)大了。

A: Actually, global income inequality is going down. And the reason for that is that the middle-income countries like India and China have been growing their economy faster than the rich countries. Although you have some inequality within the country, there is enough equality that globally, incomes are less than equal. Within many countries, inequality has gone up. So that’s a political question, do you have a tax system that’s so progressive that it’s taking more from the rich and creating a stronger safety net to help out the poorest. Our goal isn’t everybody to be exactly equal, but we should have a basic safety net that helps everyone.

A：事實(shí)上全球的收入不平等是在下降的，因?yàn)橛《群椭袊@些中等收入國家經(jīng)濟(jì)增長速度超過了富裕國家。雖然國家內(nèi)部還存在貧富差距，全球來看收入已經(jīng)達(dá)到了一定程度的平等，然而在很多國家內(nèi)部，不平等狀況有所上升。所以這是一個(gè)政策問題：一個(gè)國家是否有累進(jìn)稅收制度，向富人多征稅，用來構(gòu)建更強(qiáng)大的保障系統(tǒng)，幫助貧困人群?；饡哪繕?biāo)并不是每個(gè)人完全平等，但我們希望每個(gè)人都能享受基本的保障。

Q: What’s the best gift you get from the foundation job? As you’re full-time to do that, you were very successful in software-design and now you’re a very famous philanthropist. So, we want to know.

Q：基金會的工作給您帶來最大的收獲是什么?現(xiàn)在您全職從事慈善工作，您曾在軟件設(shè)計(jì)上取得了非常大的成功，現(xiàn)在又是十分知名的慈善家。

A: Well, the progress on global health is super exciting. It's a movement. There's lots of people involved. But to have been part of that, you know, we're really proud of it. And if we can finish polio, which I'm very optimistic, you know, that would be very satisfying. And malaria will take longer, but, you know, that's a milestone I look forward to. So, I love taking on that kind of tough challenges, hiring very smart people with a wide variety of expertise, including science, to do these things. This is fun work and we're seeing progress, you know, and we see that people care about these issues. So, even though we have setbacks, you know, I love it. I'm lucky to have a second career that is very fulfilling.

A：我們在全球健康領(lǐng)域取得的進(jìn)展是非?？上驳?，很多人參與到這場運(yùn)動(dòng)中。作為其中的一份子，我們感到非常自豪。如果我們能夠徹底根除脊髓灰質(zhì)炎，那將是非常令人欣慰的，我對此十分樂觀。徹底根除瘧疾可能要花更長的時(shí)間，不過我相信早晚會做到的。我個(gè)人很喜歡有挑戰(zhàn)性的工作，招募各行各業(yè)包括科技界的人才共同合作。這是一份非常有趣的工作，而且我們也在不斷取得進(jìn)展?，F(xiàn)在有越來越多的人重視這些問題，就算有時(shí)遭遇一些挫折，我仍然熱愛這項(xiàng)事業(yè)。我非常幸運(yùn)能夠擁有一份如此有意義的第二職業(yè)。